Podcast Episode 102 Transcript: Is It Okay to Question God?

A note: we don’t always have time to edit our transcripts; therefore, there may be multiple misspellings or misattributions in the following transcript.

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[00:00:00] Tana: Hello and welcome to Ancient Jesus Future Faith, a podcast focused on building the future of our faith by digging deep into the words, context and time of Jesus each week, we strive to answer the question, what does the Bible actually say? And what does that mean for our lives today? I'm your host Tana schiewer I'm joined by my co-hosts/panelist/experts, Don Schiewer

[00:00:24] Don: hello,

[00:00:24] Tana: and Sarah Mainardi

[00:00:26] Sarah: hi.

[00:00:27] Tana: So today we're going to talk about the concept of asking questions in the church. This is something that a lot of us grew up believing was a bad thing to do. You don't question you don't - a strong faith doesn't question God, you don't question your pastor, you don't question doctrine. And in thinking ahead to this episode, we asked some friends, you know, what were, what were you taught about asking questions in the church and overwhelmingly they shared that they were discouraged from asking questions in church context.

[00:01:05] They were told that questioning was dangerous as it showed doubt. It was an evidence of weak faith or it showed maybe that you were trying to, you know, show how much you knew, and it was a source of pride and bragging thing, or you are know it all. If you did have questions you needed to bring them up privately to the pastor so as not to cause others to stumble, or in the rare situations where questions were encouraged, it was only in service of finding or leading to a specific answer. And if, if you didn't want to get to that answer, that was, that was a problem. A couple people we talked to had some of the more extreme consequences.

[00:01:54] That's the word I was looking for, consequences of asking questions which were one was kicked out of a Bible [00:02:00] class. And another one was actually excommunicated from their church. So those are, those are some of the more extremes, but I think a lot of us You know, grew up with this at least a sort of implied caveat against asking questions.

[00:02:19] So, Sarah and Don was there anything that resonated with you with the experiences that people shared? Or do you wanna share about your own experience with questions growing up, Sarah? Why, why don't you start?

[00:02:33] Sarah: Sure.

[00:02:34] So growing up, I grew up Catholic. I don't really remember questions being encouraged or discouraged so much.

[00:02:42] It was more just like we were being taught and this is just the way things were and just things taught as fact. And you just were to accept it. And then when I was in college doing my undergrad was when I started to get involved with the Protestant church. Get a little bit outta Catholicism.

[00:03:05] And I had some friends who were in different denominations and connected to a campus ministry. And in that time I really felt like I wanted to catch up to everybody. So I didn't ask questions. I just wanted to know all the answers that would make me fit in. At the same time I became music director at a Methodist church that didn't mind that I was Catholic.

[00:03:28] And same thing at that church, I just wanted to catch up because this seemed like such an awesome thing. This version of Christianity, and because I didn't grow up in the typical Christian home that I, that all these people did, I always just, just felt like I had to read everything and find out all the answers and know what the correct responses were and what to say.

[00:03:51] And then in other churches, I can remember more recently being in a church and all of the. [00:04:00] Classes were taught like teacher and student or really more like preacher and student, if there is a distinction, meaning that it's just, this is the material. You can ask questions of clarification if you don't understand something, but not questions that actually question the content, the material. I remember being in a class that the whole class was built around this one text in the scriptures that I had heard taught differently. And the translation that I had heard taught differently, it was a matter of like an and or a but being there.

[00:04:45] And the teacher of the class that I was at was teaching it as if that, and or that butt wasn't there. And. Or vice versa. I can't remember the exact,

[00:04:54] Don: you never ignore a but

[00:04:55] Sarah: yeah, , I can't remember the exact scenario, but long story short, if I would've asked that question, I would've felt like I was disrespecting the teacher.

[00:05:03] I didn't know if the teacher actually wanted to hear a different perspective be challenged and grow, or if being ch- even when I just said the word be challenged, it felt like I would have been insulting that leader. And so I just stayed silent and just wondered, like, should I have spoken up with a different perspective or... I remember a time when I was doing a Bible study and it was talking about Sabbath and it gave like 12 scriptures in the text that said that Sabbath should be on Sunday.

[00:05:38] And in, I researched every single one of them individually and multiple of them were rooted in the same words. So they really weren't 11 different arguments and pointing to Sabbath being Friday night to Saturday in my research. And then when I went back to the Bible study the next [00:06:00] week, I also felt like, I don't know if anybody wants to know this because I feel like I'm

[00:06:05] Don: oh, that's an interesting twist on it.

[00:06:07] Sarah: knocking down a house of cards.

[00:06:08] Don: Not yeah - not just whether or not you had permission to question, but whether or not anyone sitting there wanted you to question yeah. Is, is a fascinating thing.

[00:06:20] Tana: Yeah.

[00:06:20] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:06:21] Don: It's not just the teacher that could be offended by what you say, but the students or the, the other listeners might be uncomfortable with the question.

[00:06:31] That that's really interesting. It's an interesting take on that.

[00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:06:36] So I think I struggle in my day to day life of having filters of a very quick filter that tries to consider what people want to hear instead of what. Is actually true that I try to get rid of, but just growing up, just wanting to be a good student and wanting teachers to like me, you know, maybe a little bit of approval or perfectionism in there.

[00:07:03] So I don't really know exactly, but yeah, it also just felt like questioning authority was not a good thing. And I don't, can't really trace where in my experience that became any specific instance that, that became like a, a thing that I thought that asking questions was rude or challenging or insulting or to authority.

[00:07:24] Don: Yeah. So my experience is actually pretty, is much more on the nose to the way that, you know, Tana was talking like- I'm a pa - I'm a pastor's kid. And I grew up in a more conservative church. We always would joke that we were the frozen chosen because there was even concern about people that might be charismatic and the danger of charismatic behavior in the church.

[00:07:55] And

[00:07:56] Sarah: so you had to be frozen in the services. Like you can't move, that's where the frozen comes in.

[00:07:59] Don: Yeah. [00:08:00] Sorry. It was so clear to me. I didn't even think about the fact. It might not be clear to others. Yeah. So,

[00:08:04] Tana: yeah, I had heard that phrase before, but I never really knew what it meant. Yeah.

[00:08:07] Don: So frozen chosen, we used to always joke that be careful if like you sneezed or something, because people would think that you were, you know,

[00:08:14] Tana: Charismatic?

[00:08:15] Don: You were getting -

[00:08:15] Sarah: raising your hands.

[00:08:16] Don: Yeah. That, you know, no jazz hands in our church growing up. So I grew up in a space that was very particular about everything. The way that you sat in church, the way that you engaged things, it, it seemed like everything was directed down to the very. Find details. And, and in the midst of that meant that there was no room to question anything, right?

[00:08:47] Whether implied or stated that this has already been thought out, this has already been decided upon this has already agreed upon in the community. And there is no interest. And thank you, Sarah, for the way you talked about, because that helps me even shape some of my own memory here. Like there was no interest by, it wasn't just, I used to think about that only my dad couldn't be questioned right as the pastor, but really after what you said now, I'm also realizing, and the congregation didn't want the questions either, right? Now I'm not saying nobody else did, but the general consensus was we have this figured out it's been settled and now we just are, you know, watching remakes of the same sermons over and over again.

[00:09:37] And the remakes are never as good as the original . So for me, I remember one very specific time that I questioned something that was said referencing God or scripture. And my, my father's response as the pastor was that if [00:10:00] we give ourself over to questioning, then it shows a lack of faith. That God's word is good and true.

[00:10:08] Mm. Now I've never been known as subtle. And so even as a 10-year-old Don, my response to my father at that time was no, I just have enough faith that God could answer my questions.

[00:10:26] Tana: Hmm.

[00:10:27] Don: Which I think was a good response. I think my father had a different opinion about whether that was a good response.

[00:10:34] Tana: I'm sure.

[00:10:35] Don: But it really caused a lot of problems in me. I don't know about you guys, but the things that were celebrated was memorization. Now, if you have been a part of, you know, if you go through my discipleship process that I do, part of what I ask people is a portion of, of memorization, because I think memorization is important for understanding the story, right?

[00:10:59] Because I ask people to memorize what each chapter of the Torah is about or what each chapter the gospel is in the book of acts. So if I said Genesis three, actually, if I say Genesis 11, right, Sarah?

[00:11:12] Sarah: Tower of Babel!

[00:11:12] Don: See? So sorry, we just talked about the Tower of Babel the other day.

[00:11:18] Tana: Oh, don't take that away from her.

[00:11:19] no, no,

[00:11:20] no, no, I'm not because she knew it then too. I, I was just, and she knows Genesis three as well. I, I, but it was more so just because yes, the, the mental path for her remembering. It's two towers for the elevens.

[00:11:37] Yeah. When I taught it to my daughter and we work through memorizing the chapters, I know you can't see if you're listening, but we hold up our pointer fingers to look like an 11.

[00:11:45] And we think about the fact that that could be a tower. And then we remember tower babble. Right. Well, now I'm gonna

[00:11:51] remember. Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:52] Don: And so while all

[00:11:52] Tana: of our listeners so you

[00:11:55] Sarah: got one

[00:11:55] Don: down that's right. Not, not many more to go . So memorization has [00:12:00] a huge amount of value, but memorization as, as interpretation, I don't think does.

[00:12:08] So let me give you an example. Like, I was really good at some people call 'em sword drills. We. Wow to .

[00:12:20] Tana: I dunno why that just sounds so ridiculous. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Don't

[00:12:24] Don: cross the streams. So, so, so some churches called 'em sword drills. We, I forget what we Bible quizzing is what we called 'em and you sat on these pads and you the first one to kind of get up off the pad, their light went off and they could answer the question.

[00:12:38] Wow. Yeah.

[00:12:39] Tana: And so, so you literally had to jump to your feet to ask the question or answer

[00:12:43] Don: the question. We just lifted one butt cheek by the, I mean, we, we worked it out so, so, but the main point there is that there was no interest in understanding the context of the verse, just the importance of knowing the verse, like not knowing about it, just knowing it.

[00:13:02] Sarah: Does that make sense? Right. How many verses do you have memorized? I could ask the listeners, cause I've thought about this for myself as well. How many verses that I've memorized? That I have no idea who said it or what was happening around that verse? I just know the verse. I don't know the context. I just know the verse and maybe the book and I usually was pretty bad about the chapters and the verse numbers, but yeah.

[00:13:27] Don: Right. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of how it goes is you, you then have this singular verse alienated and just kind of floating out of the ether. And the danger of that is we all can imagine is we make, we make it the full context, the full setting, everything. And so we say, well, it just simply says, you know, yeah,

[00:13:50] Sarah: simply you only need one verse to make the theology.

[00:13:53] Right. Correct.

[00:13:53] Don: It's if it's, I always say, if it fits on a bumper sticker, don't trust it. Right. Like it, it's just [00:14:00] not, it's not going to be healthy in the long run. Right. So for me to go back to the fact that you asked, you know, what was I taught about asking questions? It really was. Maybe similar to Sarah's in the sense that everyone around me just had the assumption or it just was never talked about, so you just didn't do it.

[00:14:21] No one thought about it. And then I made the mistake of thinking about it. So, and was put in my place and reminded that I'm, I'm a child type thing.

[00:14:32] Tana: Well, but even as an adult, I think you experienced that didn't you have an experience in one of your theology classes that kind of exemplifies us as well.

[00:14:41] Don: Yeah. So, I was studying, we were talking about the prophets and the professor is talking about the Shara Meach of bed to go. I probably botched all their names and in the furnace and one of the class members of the class asked a question, so that's good. And they, they asked why Daniel wasn't mentioned and.

[00:15:06] The professor kind of gave like these weird theories to me, at least they, I perceived like he was on vacation or something. He was out of town. He had, he was just chill by the beach. He had food poisoning. I don't know like that. He just, he didn't get an invite. He didn't, you know, I don't, it was, it was a strange thing, but it was a workaround.

[00:15:25] Right. Because we have this picture of Daniel being so righteous and so good. And so if, if these three gentlemen, I'm not gonna attempt to say their names

[00:15:35] Tana: again. Well, if you wanna go with the veggie tails version, no, which you know is Shaq Meshack and Benny. Okay. So, so those three, no rack shack and Benny, sorry, rack check and Benny

[00:15:46] Don: I'm.

[00:15:47] I'm glad you got it right. So those three, if those three defi and de denounce. Worshiping this idol, because that's what this all comes down to is in that story, an idol was erected [00:16:00] and all the people bowed to it to worship. And these three gentlemen did not. And because of that, they were thrown into a furnace to be executed for not following that, that rule.

[00:16:12] And so if Daniel was as good as everyone says, how come he didn't get thrown into the furnace? Mm-hmm . So in the midst of this class, I just say, I have a thought and I, you know, as we all face, sometimes when our thoughts smack up against the conventional wisdom or conventional concepts it's not always accepted excitedly.

[00:16:37] And I just said at the very beginning of the book of Daniel Nevo, kne. Bows down and worships him lights incense in his honor, renames Daniel to imply that God dwells within him and has all of these things, these entities to set Daniel up as an, as an individual or an entity of admiration and worship.

[00:17:00] And so I said, so it's possible that Daniel doesn't mention ever who the idol was an idol of, and he doesn't bow down to it, but you wouldn't need to bow down to your own image. And so I suggested maybe the idol was of Daniel and you would've thought that I had literally dragged the mother of Jesus out of her grave and prayed her around it.

[00:17:31] Yeah, it was terrible. I was waiting for Pitchfork's tar feather, all that stuff. and the professor, I mean the, the class actually got loud and somewhat rowdy at me about. and because how could our profit Daniel ever allow an idle to be an idle, to be made of him so enough about that. But what happened then is the class leaves the next week I show up for this class and I'm there early, as I'm known to do the professor walks in [00:18:00] and says, Hey, Don, I wanted to tell you I got home and started thinking about everything you said.

[00:18:05] And by the way, the professor also shut me down. In that first class, he said, I thought about it when home looked it up and started looking through all the different commentaries, all the different scholarship on this, I've never seen anyone suggest that. And I think you might be onto something and you should write an article about it.

[00:18:23] You should write like an academic journal article about it. And then the class walks in and he doesn't say another word. Mm. And he just leaves. So it, this is a weird mechanism, right? Where my question was. Was confronted with anger and defensiveness mm-hmm it was then processed by a very intelligent, capable person as probably everyone else was as well in that room, they went home, thought about pondered, it, accepted the question, and then even accepted to broaden their own thinking about it.

[00:18:55] Mm-hmm but then still had the fear in some way, because of the setting. And maybe by the way, they saw me treated by bringing it up to never mention to the class. There might be some validity to the question.

[00:19:09] Sarah: Right. And that's a lot what I think that's a lot of reasons why teachers don't want questions is they don't wanna be thrown off.

[00:19:17] They don't wanna be undermined. They don't wanna they're uncomfortable. Or, you know, things like that. Like just fear and insecurity on the part of the teacher. Yeah,

[00:19:27] Tana: absolutely. That's that's interesting because I was actually thinking about what you, you had said earlier Sarah, that you said, or preacher or teacher, if there's a distinction.

[00:19:43] But then we're talking about a, a professor who's, you know, a teacher who didn't, you know, handle the question in a really good way. And, but originally I was thinking maybe there was a distinction in the church between preacher and teacher that if you're a preacher, well, then you have a [00:20:00] predetermined interpretation of scripture that you're gonna teach everybody.

[00:20:04] I mean, teach, you know, you're gonna tell everybody and that's, that's it. Whereas maybe a teacher, a more teacher stance would be to invite discussion and invite questions. I, I think there's

[00:20:15] Don: something weird with seminary. Mm-hmm some seminaries mm-hmm, where they value more the call than the academic effort.

[00:20:26] Oh, that's interesting. And. and, you know, I apologize to any of those of you listening that are in seminary or or a professor work for a seminary. But in my experience, there's, there was lots of settings where you were given grace and it would literally be, we'll give you grace for, for things because they believed in your heart, your, your effort, your ideals, and there's part of me that wishes academic, like standard academic settings would do that more.

[00:20:59] But there's a, there is a strangeness there that I think is very similar to a pastoral piece where they are also the purveyor of permission acceptance of ideas, et cetera. And go ahead, Tona. Well, it's

[00:21:13] Tana: interesting that you're talking about the call, right? Because in a lot of settings where there is sort of a, a determined doctrine or a dog.

[00:21:31] Is the, is that, and then, you know, so you're, you're saying basically in some seminary situations, it's like, well, you're here to learn the way that we teach the Bible and move on and do it. I mean, that feels like a kind of sucky call. like, oh, I'm called to be a vessel for something that's already predetermined.

[00:21:54] I'm not called to be someone who explores the scripture and, [00:22:00] and, and learns it and, and might actually have some kind of gifting for interpreting

[00:22:13] Don: even well. Because I think part of that is that there's a perceived danger of if for the last 2000 years, this was agreed upon. Right. You know? And so that precedent is super.

[00:22:27] You know, it's super important, just like our new, you know, Supreme court justices who believed in precedence and, and now have gone against precedence mm-hmm and there there's something to the idea of there being precedence. But I think unfortunately, if precedence is built in oppression or misinformation mm-hmm , then it becomes a, a nearly impossible thing to overcome by one or two people asking.

[00:23:02] Right. Because you know, things that people would say to me is like, oh, what do you think? You're the next Luther, you know? And you know, if I'm questioning the way things have been done, it's well, it's been good for everyone. It's worked well for 2000 years and I'm like, no, it has not worked well for everyone, for everyone for 2000 years.

[00:23:21] And it's worked well for affluent white people in the west. for 2000 years. I would not say it's worked well for everyone.

[00:23:34] Tana: So, I think you've already started to answer this question, but why do you think then that so many people have been taught not to question that settled precedent of the last 2000 years or whatever.

[00:23:55] Sarah, do you have any thoughts?

[00:23:57] Sarah: Well, I think, like I said, I think sometimes it's just the [00:24:00] teacher insecurities. They don't wanna be questioned. They wanna share what they have shared. They don't want to look stupid in front of the group or it's just, there's just, there's not enough of a welcoming atmosphere for, I don't know, or acknowledging a good question.

[00:24:18] Or even a space for silence in conversations. I mean, I've. I treasure those ideas. And you'll hear me in this podcast saying, I don't know, or I don't have anything to say about that because I also think that that's just realistic. Right. And that we, as teachers are humans, there are gonna be times that we don't know, and being who we honestly are in this moment, instead of trying to be more than what we are, is the best gift that we can give to the world, to the people around us.

[00:24:54] So when I stop trying to be the person that has all the answers and I stop trying to be the person that is impressing people with what I have to say or what I have to teach. And I embrace the fact that there will be things I don't know. It also gives permission to the people around me to be comfortable with the fact that they don't know Hmm.

[00:25:15] Or in a conversation when we leave room for silence. Some people need a little bit of more time to process something before they have something to share. And if there's not room for silence at a table, that there will be people whose voices won't get heard, because either they can't process quickly or, and I'm not even, I'm just saying and there might even one moment where you can process quickly and another moment where you just need a little bit of time.

[00:25:41] But when we don't have silence as a welcome guest in our conversations, then people can monopolize the conversations. So I think, yeah, I think also this mindset that, well, this has already been thought out by people who are smarter than you. You can't possibly have [00:26:00] anything to share. Mm-hmm like, who are you?

[00:26:03] And some of that might go into it as well.

[00:26:10] Tana: That's an interesting, that part is an interesting point to me because out outside of the church, there is a very rampant anti-intellectualism. And you know, you see that in politics where now it's like, well, we're rejecting, rejecting these career bureaucrats and, and their institutional knowledge is not good, and, and it's time for us to get in there and shake things up. And, and there's almost like, with a lot of the candidates out there almost like a bragging for, you know, who, who knows the least , you know, who has the least adjacent political experience, you know, cuz you want that new person, but in the church, it's almost like the opposite of, well, this has been what the, the doctrine has been for for thousands of years.

[00:27:00] Sarah: Right.

[00:27:00] Tana: And who are we to dare question it and it, and I think, I think maybe there's an element of like, well, because this has been decreed by God, but they're, they're, they're skipping over the whole interpretation part. And, and not, and, and, you know, kind of ignoring that well, but there were people who told us that this is what God meant.

[00:27:23] Sarah: right.

[00:27:24] Tana: You know?

[00:27:25] Sarah: Yeah. And I think the questions can be so valuable. It just reminds me of our friend who goes to church with us, who wasn't raised with a Christian background and she will ask questions that on the surface seem basic, or like the things you would learn in membership class or in your first classes of trying to be a Protestant Christian.

[00:27:50] And whoever's up leading, I mean, I always start to sweat if she asks a question because it's like, oh, it's such a good question, but I'm [00:28:00] so far beyond that, like at the stage of my faith, where I had that question, it was that mode of, I just need to learn the right answer.

[00:28:10] Tana: Right. Right.

[00:28:11] So whether it's a question about grace or mercy, or, you know, it's like, and there's so many of those short little pithy sayings that, well, this is what you say when somebody asks about this, this is what you say when somebody asks about this.

[00:28:23] And because I just knew God to be good. And I thought I just needed to know all those answers and I just accepted everything as good and moved beyond that. So when she brings up these, I can't think of a better word than basic questions. It's like, I'm so far gone. I didn't even like think of that as a question, but it's so helpful to our community when she does ask those questions.

[00:28:48] Don: Absolutely. What, so I think, you know, I, I also struggle with giving it a label of basic or whatever. But there's something about that.

[00:28:57] Tana: Cause that, that word almost sounds insulting.

[00:28:59] Don: Yeah. It's not, it's demeaning.

[00:28:59] Tana: It's basic like yeah,

[00:29:00] Don: no, it's, it's more so that there's no, there's no nuance attached to it.

[00:29:07] There's no, it's it's just, the question is how do we trust that God is good. Right? And as you said, like, you know,

[00:29:18] Sarah: God is good all the time.

[00:29:19] Don: Yeah, exactly. Boom. We're done.

[00:29:21] Tana: You could have said the first part and God is good all the time.

[00:29:24] Don: And it almost, and it almost feels that if we're talking to a child, which is horrible, by the way that we could get away with that.

[00:29:31] But when an adult asks that question and the sincerity is there, it's not a confrontational thing, but it's a genuineness of like, but how do I know that God is good? That'll, that'll put a pause in you. Because you know what? I can't tell you that right now. I can't just give you that reason. I can't just off the cuff, respond to that because there's something deeper, [00:30:00] relational that exists that has to be lived out and experienced in before you can start to really get to that. Maybe one of our listeners can sum up that in a very beautiful way. And if so, we'll invite you to church sometime to share that with us, but it's, it really is hard sometimes when questions, because I think we have become so astute or taught by the education system to ask questions in such a way that it almost leads you to a singular answer as opposed to leaves room and opens it up to it, creating a I think about like a river with tributaries, right?

[00:30:45] You have this one river and then all of a sudden, boom, you have hundreds of tributaries that come out of it before it, it exits into whatever water destination it's heading towards. Right? I think for us, we're taught more like a stream with no se with no tributaries. Yeah. That, there's a question.

[00:31:02] There's one outlet. There's one answer. There's one response. And there's a beauty in the tributaries.

[00:31:09] Tana: Well, it's cuz you'll be, you'll be tested on it later. Right. Which if you think about it in the grand scheme of, yeah.

[00:31:15] Don: Does God use a number two pencil during that process?

[00:31:18] Tana: red pen.

[00:31:18] Sarah: Well, and it helps to figure out who's in and who's out.

[00:31:21] Don: Yes.

[00:31:21] Sarah: When there's one answer.

[00:31:22] Tana: Right.

[00:31:23] Sarah: But when we value questions as a core belief, it's saying that all are welcome here, which I know is a phrase that gets thrown around a lot. And doesn't always mean what the words actually say. But when I think of all our welcome besides the initial intent of that, I think of it also that you're welcome with whatever questions you have with whatever doubt that you have whatever uncertainty in your faith, you are still welcome here. And that we treasure the opportunity to hear your voice and your unique [00:32:00] perspective. You don't have to have everything figured out because back to what I was saying about like, when you are your honest self being a gift, you are just creating a safe place for other people to be there, honest selves.

[00:32:12] Because when you ask a question that maybe in a different environment would be considered offensive, or maybe you would be thought of as a stupid question or things like that, but you're opening the floor for other people to feel safe, to ask their questions.

[00:32:32] Tana: Yeah. You know what I had, I have more .. It just went out of my mind. Yeah,

[00:32:41] go ahead.

[00:32:42] Sarah: But another thing I was thinking about in preparation for this podcast was that when we realized that we can interact with our faith with questions, it can lead us to give permission, to interact with God, with questions, but beyond that, interacting with issues of justice, with questions, interacting with the Bible with questions.

[00:33:02] Don: Absolutely.

[00:33:03] Sarah: Being able to ask questions gives us the chance to be authentic. We don't have to ignore part of ourselves. It can also be a great way to lead us to wonder and accepting people who believe things that are different than us. Because I think Don this might be a phrase I learned from you that questions are morally neutral but they can lead us to awareness and help us to grow and connect us with each other.

[00:33:31] And that idea of turning to wonder that when somebody has a different point of view, that I can be curious about it and not judgemental that oh, somebody said a different answer than I thought. So they must be out, but instead of immediately going like, well, Or, or even more accurately, well, oh, you said you believe that somebody told me that that means that you're out and but turning to [00:34:00] wonder, would be asking, can even lead to, to you asking more questions, like what led you to that belief?

[00:34:06] And I just believe that that's sacred ground when we really get to share our authentic selves of who we are and learn from other people and questions are a great way to open the door to that sacred

[00:34:18] space.

[00:34:19] Don: Absolutely. I think when we, when we give room for questions and to use your phrase, you know, it opens door to wonder that it allows us a safety to explore our faith that I wasn't raised to have.

[00:34:43] Tana: Hmm.

[00:34:44] Don: Right? Because it was so black and white that. A, a poor decision here, a poor decision there, a poor phrasing of an idea or whatever it might be, could be the difference between me experiencing a, a world to come that was beautiful. And one that was torturous literally in the way that I was taught.

[00:35:09] Right? So, as a small child, I, I would fret at night. Especially one time I heard that the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the holy spirit. And I asked my father what that meant, and he didn't know. And so he surmised that it was like taking the Lord's name in vain, but about the holy spirit. And so I've heard people be like, "Jesus Christ."

[00:35:40] Right? So as a small child, I go lay in my bed in my bunk bed and I'm laying there and I'm like, "holy spirit." And instantly imagine that I had just ruined the rest of my hopes to ever be viewed as good by God again. [00:36:00] And this is where the value of, I don't know, comes in, have my father just said, I don't know, but I know that God is good.

[00:36:07] And then I could ask why, and then that, that opens another door as we already discussed. But that it's that because an answer was felt like it needed to be given, right?

[00:36:20] Sarah: Mm-hmm

[00:36:21] Don: It, it caused me harm, fear or trepidation for many years, until I finally just no longer held that as having the power that I thought it did as a child.

[00:36:33] But the, the danger becomes is we have all these black and white things such as, you know, I think it's important to recognize doctrines are the answers to questions of people, right? That's what a doctrine is, is giving people an agreed upon answer to a common question being asked. So is Jesus, the son of God? That becomes a doctrine. Is the Bible literal?

[00:36:59] That becomes a doctrine. Is marriage between a man and a woman? That becomes doctrinal. The danger of that, as we can all imagine is that as you have variance of perspective on those things, you're left to either declare that the doctrine is bad. And therefore the answer that you've come to the answer that your church or your yourself have held is fundamentally flawed.

[00:37:27] And therefore you are fundamentally flawed or you have to start a new denomination.

[00:37:33] Tana: Right.

[00:37:35] Sarah: Right.

[00:37:35] Don: Right? And this becomes the measuring tool of who's in who's out. that has caused great harm to so many people. Whereas if you look at ancient Judaism, the Judaism that Jesus grew up in, right? So this is that ancient Jesus piece, right?

[00:37:50] That there wasn't Judaism has no doctrine, the closest thing to doctrine and Judaism, a doctrinal statement. Anybody wanna take a [00:38:00] stab

[00:38:01] Tana: doctrinal statement?

[00:38:02] Don: Yeah.

[00:38:06] Sarah: Something to do with studying the text?

[00:38:08] Don: No

[00:38:09] Tana: Asking questions?

[00:38:11] Don: God is one. Ah, that is the closest thing to a doctrinal statement that exists within ancient Judaism.

[00:38:17] Now modern Judaism might have developed. I really hope they haven't. I really hope that it has remained a non doctoral thing because non doctoral wi welcomes perspective change societal growth evolution of, of faith and ideas about God. And if you read the text from Genesis. Through, you're going to see that God's interaction in the way that God treats and interacts.

[00:38:41] The world does change over time. Right? And I don't know about you, but growing up in a church that had very doctrinal statements, I was Al- one of the statements would've been, God does not change. And so it becomes complicated. Whereas if we, if we embrace a, a status or a concept or an idea that our faith is always changing, our faith is always growing.

[00:39:09] Our understanding of God is always growing and God is comfortable with questions and the pastor or the leaders in our life who have some authority for speaking truth about faith into our life also embrace those questions. It's not about a tight.rope to survive to the world to come instead, it becomes an exploration.

[00:39:34] It becomes an epic journey. I love how so many Christians love the story of the Lord of the rings.

[00:39:40] Tana: Hmm.

[00:39:40] Don: It's this epic tale, right? That is very steeped in religious theme, and, and that's part of the reason that a lot of even more conservative settings will still embrace lord the rings, but reject Harry Potter, even though they have very similar themes.

[00:39:59] Tana: Yeah.

[00:39:59] Don: [00:40:00] Because there's a deep, intentional religious connection with Lord of the rings. Sure. But if you, if you remember watching that those movies or reading those books, it was always an adventure of this massive on this massive epic scale. And I would argue that to some degree, the reason people have become so disenfranchised with Christianity or faith is because it's become a tight wire act instead of an epic adventure that I believe the text, I believe that God intended it to be.

[00:40:34] Sarah: Yeah. And the, when we look at the text, we see people asking questions all over the place.

[00:40:39] Don: Absolutely.

[00:40:40] Sarah: God asks questions. Where are you? Yeah. In the garden. Abraham questions, God, Jesus asked over 300 questions and he only directed directly answered I think about three of them, if I remember the fact correctly.

[00:40:55] Don: It's, it's just hugely overwhelming. Jesus asked more questions than he answered significantly.

[00:41:01] Sarah: And it even goes to in the previous podcast we were talking about labels and Pharisees. And when we read the Pharisees questioning Jesus, I think we carry some of this lens into that, that, Ooh, who are they to question Jesus?

[00:41:16] Don: Absolutely.

[00:41:17] Sarah: But that's not the, the temperature of a, the conversation because questions were valued, questions were normal and accepted and that was a part of their

[00:41:30] Don: Even a way of showing honor.

[00:41:32] Sarah: Right.

[00:41:33] Yeah. That you're engaging with your teacher. And yeah.

[00:41:41] Don: So Tana you were, you were getting ready to say something.

[00:41:44] Did you wanna add something?

[00:41:47] Tana: I have forgotten my question

[00:41:53] Sarah: Yeah. I just, sorry, I just wanted to get to that piece of putting it, you know, do you have more to share about what that atmosphere would've been [00:42:00] like for a disciple and their rabbi and, or even just like the religious people and how they interacted with questions as they studied Torah.

[00:42:16] Don: Yeah. And there's such a huge disparity between today and then because of the way that we have reimagined our religion in such a way, well, that makes it a religion with rules and expectations for acceptance, right? But if you read the text and you, if you were to put that presupposition out in front of you, rules and expectation to participate or to be included, and you were to read Paul, and when he goes to Athens and, and Paul is like, I see that you are a very religious people, that you are a people of faith.

[00:42:55] I've seen the altars, I've seen all these things and he's celebrating the people and he's not saying, and you got it all wrong and you mess up and all this stuff. But what he does do is he recognizes that there's a altar there that doesn't actually have any inscription on it, of any names of gods. And he says, you have this unknown God, and this altar to them, I know their name.

[00:43:18] And so he contributes to their knowledge and understanding of faithfulness, not in a manner to convert them, but in a manner to show that they they're not alone and that there's room for this. So there's so many powerful things and it's because a teacher in ancient Israel was not interested in being considered "right." They were considered in, they were interested in being righteous and, and that's, that's a significant shift for us because we would rather, we have pastors that think they're right and are anything but righteous.

[00:43:58] Tana: Hmm.

[00:43:59] Don: And, [00:44:00] but we value answers and certainty over wonder and faith. Yeah. It, and I think that's one of the shocking things that evangelicalism had done to me is that it wasn't faith that was important, it was certainty. And we just decided to call certainty. Faith is kind of like, you know, literally and figuratively today. Right? Right. My head's literally gonna explode. No, no, it probably is not going to literally explode, but it might figuratively explode. But now that has been spoken so often that now that's an alternative definition of literally.

[00:44:38] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:44:39] Don: And I would say the same thing is true with the evangelicalism I experienced. And I don't know that it's unique to just evangelicalism. I think it's probably unique to a lot of faith that faith was actually just certainty that I was right. Whereas that's actually an antonym. Faith means that you are trusting something that you don't fully understand, comprehend, know to be true, but have enough confidence in that item or that relationship or that fact that you trust it. Anyhow.

[00:45:12] Tana: That's, that's a very interesting point about faith and certainty because you you're right. It's they're an Antons.

[00:45:21] Don: Excellent. The rhetrorician has confirmed

[00:45:24] Tana: good job.

[00:45:24] Don: I was accurate.

[00:45:26] Tana: But that made me think about and now I've lost it again.

[00:45:34] My goodness. My brain is just a sieve this morning.

[00:45:38] Sarah: That's okay. Silence is allowed

[00:45:39] Tana: Faith. Faith is certainty that I am, right... oh, now I remember. Okay, good. Thank you for giving me a moment. The- you had said earlier, Don, that you had, you know, your, your dad was upset about a question you were like, why have faith?

[00:45:59] That [00:46:00] God can answer my question, basically. And, and that's one of my one of the things that I've come to with this concept of asking questions and people who get upset at questioning traditional doctrine or traditional interpretations of scripture is, is that they have this, this one interpretation and they, they, they cling to it and and they can't handle the questions against it.

[00:46:26] And, and I just think how small is your God? You know, it, it it's like they have this interpretation of faith that is all, all buttoned up. Even though a lot of it doesn't always make sense and contradicts itself, but the they've, they've done the mental work to, to have this, you know, oh, it's all perfect.

[00:46:46] This is exactly what this means. And I just think, gosh, how small is your God that you think you could just understand God perfectly with no questions?

[00:47:00] Don: Yeah.

[00:47:00] Tana: No, no wonder about how maybe these two things seem to be in conflict and you still can't figure out why.

[00:47:08] Don: Right.

[00:47:09] Tana: And how that works together or that or that God is so small that just this this one denomination. Got it. Right. That was it. They got it on the nose,

[00:47:21] Don: Threaded the needle.

[00:47:22] Tana: If you are not a part of that denomination, you are out. You know, and that, that to me speaks of a very small God, like wouldn't we think maybe God would accept multiple answers to one question?

[00:47:36] Don: Yeah. There's it always, it, I love the one rabbinic saying that says, oh, there's a hundred thousand interpretations of the text because there's a hundred thousand Jews.

[00:47:47] And, and it wasn't tongue in cheek. It was that, that was beautiful.

[00:47:52] Tana: Right.

[00:47:53] Don: And that hopefully implied in that then is the willingness to listen to other [00:48:00] people's interpretations and other people's experience. And there, there, wasn't a fear of getting it wrong. I do wanna circle back and ask you a question, Sarah, what is it that you think is the reason that they don't want us to ask questions.

[00:48:21] Right? When I think about this, we ask, are you allowed to ask questions, et cetera, but, but what, why do you think that the church has held onto this with white knuckles for so long?

[00:48:38] Sarah: Well, I think it probably has to do with power structures and keeping things not rocking the boat, keeping things going the way that they are going, because the people that are benefiting from the structures that are there are going to fight to keep the structures that are there. And too many questions could rock that foundation.

[00:49:03] Don: Yeah. Tana what are your thoughts about that?

[00:49:09] Tana: I agree.

[00:49:13] Don: That's fair.

[00:49:15] Tana: I don't really have anything, anything to add that. Add to that. I just agree that it's a way of holding onto power.

[00:49:23] Don: I, so do you think that there's room to say it's not just about holding onto power, but also that they've bought their own lemonade.

[00:49:34] And so if they're not right, they're in trouble and so,

[00:49:41] Tana: oh, so fear?

[00:49:43] Don: Yeah. It's it's, it's also like self preservation. Yeah. Right. Think about, I have so many dear friends who have wrestled with inclusion and then ultimately ended up deciding on the side of [00:50:00] that the church should welcome all people regardless of sexuality.

[00:50:04] And because of that decision, they lost their licensing. They lost their credentials. They lost their retirement, their 4 0 1 C three or whatever. No, not four one C 3,

[00:50:16] Tana: 5 0 1 C three.

[00:50:17] Don: No, that's the, I was just saying the retirement fund.

[00:50:21] Tana: Oh, 401k.

[00:50:22] Don: 401k. Thank you. And they, they lost all those things. They lost their retirement benefits, et cetera.

[00:50:32] And some people close to retirement age when they made those decisions.

[00:50:36] Tana: Yeah.

[00:50:37] Don: And there's a part of me that have seen other pastors who I know personally believe in inclusion, but have decided to walk a really complicated line in their church because they can't afford the consequences.

[00:50:53] Tana: Right.

[00:50:54] Don: And I think, I think there's a step beyond that, which is, I don't even want to ask the question.

[00:51:00] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:51:01] Don: I don't even want to begin wrestling with that afraid of the answer

[00:51:04] Tana: mm-hmm

[00:51:04] Don: because if I change my mind, I'm done.

[00:51:08] Tana: Yeah. Well, it, that, that kind of hearkens back to what you're saying about how the other people around you don't want you to ask the question

[00:51:14] Don: I've always wanted to be hearkened back, so thank you.

[00:51:17] Tana: You're welcome. You know where you said, you know, other people don't want you to question either. So it's not just well we were saying earlier that the other people don't want you to question, but you're adding in the like, well, I don't want to question .

[00:51:35] Don: Yeah.

[00:51:35] Tana: Like, like that, that that's, that's performing and, you know, you're one of the, the pastors who questioned things and got kicked out.

[00:51:46] Was that ever a fear for you when you questioned?

[00:51:51] I suppose I, I should back up and, or, or you, or you should just explain what I mean [00:52:00] by that.

[00:52:01] Don: So I planted a church with A denomination, the evangelical

[00:52:07] Tana: covenant church,

[00:52:08] Don: covenant church. Thank you. Clearly I blotted the name out.

[00:52:11] Tana: You remembered evangelical .

[00:52:13] Don: I did.

[00:52:14] And when I planted the church, I told them that I would plant an inclusive church.

[00:52:19] And this was in 2013. Well, 2012, the conversations were happening in 2013 is when the church was started, which is still going. And still a part of my, my daily life is this church. And they basically said that was fine. As long as I was quiet about it, didn't make a big deal. And I didn't know what that really meant.

[00:52:38] I wasn't planning on throwing parades or anything, though I attended some and anyhow, ultimately it became too much for them to bear because the denomination is not inclusive. And so they eliminated my credentialing and my licensure and removed our church from there, from their list. I don't, I don't think, I, I don't think in this instance there was fear with.

[00:53:04] Tana: Hmm, right.

[00:53:05] Don: I was pretty set in my ways. I had already preached a sermon at a fairly conservative church, five years prior on welcoming everyone being and not welcoming in the way that that's become, unfortunately, but truly including all people. And so I was already kind of set in my ways, I think maybe in 2007, I was more nervous than I was in two.

[00:53:27] Tana: When you were making initial questions, I guess that's your initial questioning actually happened?

[00:53:32] Don: Sure. Yeah. So a time ago. So yeah, I, I don't know that it, I had fear, I think where I have fear sometimes or concern about my own wellbeing when it comes to church is more along the lines and, and this is, and this is gonna sound like Don painting himself to be a better person than he is. And I- this is when you get asked in an interview, what's your [00:54:00] biggest weakness? I work too hard. I care. I care too much. I care too much. I think my biggest fears that I feel now is, and especially reflective is those of having taught someone something wrong that ultimately became harmful to them.

[00:54:18] I'm comfortable with the fact that every Sunday that I teach every opportunity, every podcast probably I'm going to teach or exert some idea that is wrong or flawed, whatever- I'm comfortable with that, that's just reality. What, what keeps me up at night, even when I'm getting ready to teach, especially if I'm teaching on something that's could be complicated or hard for people is that I will say, or teach something that will, will create harm in their life.

[00:54:46] Tana: Mm

[00:54:47] Don: so,

[00:54:49] Tana: Well, I think it's in a way that's a healthy fear to have. Because it means you're always questioning.

[00:54:55] Don: Right. But that's also why I said it's kind of like answering, you know, it's because I care too much.

[00:55:01] Tana: Mm-hmm right, right. But but I think what's interesting about the way you are, and this sort of goes back to my whole, like, you know, kind of glomming onto what Sarah said about preacher teacher distinction.

[00:55:15] I, I, I see you as a teacher, not a preacher cuz you don't, you don't get up there on a Sunday morning and just talk at us. Most of the time, you know, for people who are unfamiliar with the way that Dust Church does our services, it's a conversation and you can ask questions in the middle of the service, which is, I think unusual, you know, you, normally you go to a church and there's a, you know, set things that, you know, first we say this prayer and then we do this music and then we do these announcements or like whatever the, the thing is.

[00:55:44] And then there's like a, you know, 20 to 40 minute sermon depending on your denomination. And then, you know, you go on your happy way. And, and you more so teach and you want to help people come to conclusions and it's not, [00:56:00] you know, just like, well, here's this thing. I studied the Bible this week and this is the conclusion I came to.

[00:56:05] And so now here's what you should believe. And so that, that has been very valuable. And so, as we're kind of heading towards the end of this episode but we've talked a lot about the value of questions and about why people don't want us to question. I think it would be really great if we could leave our listeners/viewers with some basic guidelines for how to ask questions.

[00:56:36] And I would love both of your thoughts on this, but Don, I know that you actually wrote up some. So, I'll leave it up to you. Whether Sarah, you wanna maybe give some input input first and then Don, you can read your guidelines.

[00:56:52] Don: I think Sarah, I would like to hear your thoughts first.

[00:56:57] Sarah: Oh, I thought you were gonna take it.

[00:56:58] So what was the question again? oh, guidelines were good questions. Well I know that we try to discourage why questions

[00:57:07] Don: and I used a lot of them in this episode. and was, I was more aware of me saying why than I was saying "um.".

[00:57:15] Sarah: Yeah, and I think, well, why no "why" questions? But a why question can be seen as a challenge as opposed to an invitation especially if you're talking about in, within relationships, it can put somebody on the defense and then the answer that they come back with might be guarded or incomplete.

[00:57:34] It's kinda like a closed question, but changing the phrasing can help get back to that idea of turning to wonder and curiosity. so instead of saying like, why did you do that? But what were the reasons for doing that?

[00:57:47] Don: Yeah,

[00:57:47] Tana: mm-hmm

[00:57:48] Sarah: and I mean, there's no magic power, there's no magic power in just changing words.

[00:57:54] It also has to be a changing in the heart. I always try to say that whenever I talk about these ideas of just changing a [00:58:00] different way of saying things, because you can say what, what were the reasons you did that you could say it with, with a vindictive or, you know, harsh tone. And then it, it kind of defeats the purpose of changing, but sometimes just changing the words can help turn our heart to a more gentler response.

[00:58:21] Tana: Absolutely. Cuz it's much harder to yell. What are the reasons that you did that with as, as opposed to, why did you do like, just like even you like kind of expressing when you were like, oh, say it more harshly. I could feel you kind of tripping over the words.

[00:58:33] Sarah: Yeah. Right.

[00:58:34] Tana: Yeah. You know, whereas if you say, what are the reasons you did it, you might be like, okay, so. what are the reasons that you decided to do X, Y, Z?

[00:58:42] Sarah: Yeah. And I think the, the why questions just they're just weak questions. They're the easy question that first comes to mind. So we can challenge ourselves by, by getting rid of the why questions. And they just,

[00:58:56] Don: That really hurts Sarah. Since I just said, I asked a lot of, that really hurts.

[00:58:59] Sarah: And they just, well, they can just lead to like a loop.

[00:59:02] Don: Yes.

[00:59:02] Sarah: You just get stuck in the why loop because even with my daughters, if I say, oh, we're not eating ice cream today. Why? Because we had ice cream yesterday. Why, you know, like why, well, we had ice cream. Yes. You mean why'd we had ice cream yesterday? Or are you just trying to keep pressing me until I give in and say that we can have ice cream today, but it just it's an endless loop.

[00:59:27] Changing the word wording can also get us to be a little bit more specific of, of what we're talking about. Instead of using the Why.

[00:59:35] Don: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:59:36] Sarah: And I just said a ton of "ums" so there you go.

[00:59:40] Don: oh, I, I said both. I just-

[00:59:41] Sarah: that's for you Malcolm

[00:59:42] Don: There. Yes. My son is, is quite the guru with all of this technical stuff.

[00:59:48] And so

[00:59:49] Tana: he was very concerned about us saying "um" too often

[00:59:51] Don: he was so, to those listeners who have cringed every time we have used a filler word, apologies. My, [01:00:00] my son would not be thrilled with us. So a, a couple, do you have any others that you wanted share? So just a couple ones that, you know, to share here.

[01:00:10] I think one thing that's gonna be clear is that questions is gonna be kind of a baseline of most of our conversations going forward. And we're going to constantly return to this both as a topic, but also as a subtopic in, in our different conversations. But one of the things I think that people do that is, it doesn't, isn't being respectful in the space of questioning. And therefore, maybe is even asking wonder is asking a question. They already know the answer to

[01:00:42] Tana: mm-hmm

[01:00:42] Don: And, and this is a way of kind of just trying to impose your knowledge on a group, especially if you you're pretty confident that you're gonna stump the group.

[01:00:52] Right? So asking a question, you know, the answer to, especially if you are the student or the learner is, is really unhealthy. I think teachers will often ask questions they know the answer to. I hope so otherwise, how do they grade my test? So, so asking a question that you, you know, the answer to is, can be harmful.

[01:01:13] I also think that when we ask a question, it shouldn't be to, to gain certainty. It should be to broaden wonder.

[01:01:26] Tana: Hmm.

[01:01:27] Don: Right? And I think, I think that that's a hard one. I think that's a hard switch to turn that, because that changes the way you ask the question and maybe even pulls you away from why questions or creates a little bit more introspection of where am I hoping I'm going with this question?

[01:01:47] Where is it gonna lead me? And how will that broaden my view of the world, my view of this topic, as opposed to it being something that becomes a funnel that funnels down to a point [01:02:00] questions can also go the other way, where they open it up and leave room for more exploration.

[01:02:06] Tana: And I think that's difficult for people because as much as we say, oh, you need to have faith, boy, do we love certainty?

[01:02:12] Sarah: Mm-hmm

[01:02:12] Don: Oh, absolutely. I mean, imagine, imagine only functioning day to day on faith and not on any certainty whatsoever.

[01:02:22] Tana: And, and I think we we've seen that

[01:02:25] Don: or at least perceived certainty

[01:02:27] Tana: throughout your, your ministry, Don. I remember, you know, there was we talked about the corners of the field, the Leviticus

[01:02:37] Don: 19,

[01:02:37] Tana: 19! I was gonna say 19, I was afraid it was wrong.

[01:02:40] Don: well, it's in more than one place, so, okay. You could have been right. Even if you didn't say...

[01:02:44] Tana: So it is, it is where it basically says, you know, when you plow your fields it's probably not the right word. Leave the corners for the Sojourner and the widow and, you know, and there was a question of, well, what's a corner, how much of a corner do you leave?

[01:02:59] And people really wanted an answer to that and, and you refused to give them one and boy, that was, that was just such a difficult thing. Cuz then people were questioning any expense that was beyond survival.

[01:03:14] Don: Yeah.

[01:03:14] Tana: You know?

[01:03:15] Don: And, and the anger turned towards the person that want to answer the question.

[01:03:20] Right?

[01:03:20] Tana: Right

[01:03:21] Don: Right. And becomes also a fascinating thing.

[01:03:23] Tana: Yeah.

[01:03:23] Don: You know, I think I finally settled on for people. If you leave one stalk of wheat stalk of wheat, stalk of wheat in each corner. You're good. If you only take one stock of wheat out of the middle, right. You're good. Anything in between.

[01:03:39] You're good.

[01:03:40] And they didn't like that.

[01:03:41] Tana: Cuz that was a non-answer

[01:03:44] Don: I set parameters in which one can live well. So, one other thing I think is important and we'll get into a lot of these other guidelines and ideas in other episodes. But you know, my last one that I kind of want to give [01:04:00] people is developing a, a good method of asking questions and this really just, you know, attaches to the back end of the other one I just gave or developing your own skill at asking questions, but, or developing, helping other people to develop that skill, is to create not just better questioners, but also being comfortable with not having all the answers.

[01:04:26] Tana: Yeah,

[01:04:27] Don: because the more that I have learned to ask questions, the more I have learned, I don't have a lot of good, I have way better questions than I have answered. Right. And I think that that has profoundly shaped my life in a way that is so meaningful and beautiful.

[01:04:48] Tana: Yeah.

[01:04:49] Sarah: Yeah. I think one of the last things that I just wanna share that, you know, back to when you were star sharing, a bit of your story of leaving the ECC that although asking questions can feel like an uprooting and it can be, I firmly believe that the roots that will develop from that are gonna be of a different and better quality.

[01:05:11] So that's- wherever you're at with questioning, it's it can be scary. It can feel, I don't know why the word wobbly is popping into my head, but it's going to lead to beauty and deeper roots, especially if you're you're grounded in the scripture and that shows us so many challenge us in so many ways to love our neighbors well.

[01:05:41] Don: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:05:43] Tana: I love that. And my, my next question was gonna be to ask, what do you want to leave? What do you want people to leave this episode with? I don't know if that's, that was a great,

[01:05:54] Sarah: that's it.

[01:05:55] Tana: Okay. I wanted to give you that it's all like opportunity, Don, do you have a,

[01:05:59] Don: I [01:06:00] just don't want 'em questioning whether they're gonna listen to episode three.

[01:06:03] I want that to be a certainty. So, no, I, I think that that was a, a perfect ending.

[01:06:11] I agree as well.

[01:06:12] Tana: Well done, Sarah thanks. So, any further resources you recommend if people wanna keep looking into the concept

[01:06:21] of questioning?

[01:06:23] Sarah: Well, I remember a book that Don let me borrow that I've got about halfway through and it's awesome about halfway through and I still have to finish it, but it's the only thing that popped in my head in terms of a recommendation.

[01:06:33] And it's called A More Beautiful Question by Warren Berger. It's actually not a spiritual book. It's like entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial minded. Did I make up a word?

[01:06:45] Don: Nailed it.

[01:06:46] Sarah: But yeah, in like business world, you know, but just, just an amazing, inspiring book about how asking good questions can lead to discovery and we can apply that to our faith.

[01:06:59] Don: Absolutely.

[01:07:00] Tana: Awesome. Any other.

[01:07:01] Don: Nope.

[01:07:03] Tana: All right. Well, that's it for today. Thank you all for joining us. We hope you'll tune in for our next episode. In the meantime, you can find us on all, almost all the social media platforms, YouTube, our website and just, you know, join the conversation.

[01:07:20] Thanks, bye.

[01:07:22] Don: Bye

[01:07:22] Sarah: Bye.