Podcast Episode 117 Transcript: Does God Want Me To Be Happy?

Listen here or watch on YouTube.

What does the bible say about happiness? Does God want us to be happy? In this part two of our series on emotions, we explore the concept of "happiness" and how it is often seen as a negative in some Christian circles. We explore the difference between joy and happiness, break down the "take up your cross" passage, and return to the idea that faith - and happiness - is communal.

Passages discussed: James 1: 2-3, Matthew 16: 24, John 17

Resources:

• Between Happiness and Mirth by James Martin

• Happiness by Randy Alcorn:

[00:00:00] Tana: Hello and welcome to the Ancient Jesus Future Faith- I almost forgot the name of it- podcast.

[00:00:12] Don: Hopefully you, the listener, have not.

[00:00:15] Tana: It's pretty bad. It's a great start, Tana. I am one of your hosts, Tana Schiewer,

[00:00:21] Don: not for long.

[00:00:22] Tana: I may be fired after this.

[00:00:24] Don: We're accepting applications.

[00:00:26] And I am joined by my other hosts,

[00:00:28] Sarah Mainardi

[00:00:29] Sarah: hello

[00:00:30] Tana: and Don Schiewer.

[00:00:31] Don: Hey.

[00:00:32] Tana: And, uh, today we're going to continue our discussion on emotions. And we want to start today with joy and happiness. And I wanna start Sarah, by asking you a question because at, at the very beginning of our, our last episode on emotions, you said something about joy versus happiness, and I was wondering if you could define the difference between the two.

[00:01:02] Sarah: Yes and no because I don't really think that there is a difference between joy and happiness. Um, in fact, in Christianity we hear that a lot that joy is somehow more honorable or more spiritual than happiness. But prior to the 20th century, um, that it was, they were synonymous, joy and happy. But in current times, it's like happiness is at best inferior to joy.

[00:01:33] Don: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:33] Sarah: or at worst, just evil. And the Bible does talk about happiness, but joy and happiness are not contrasting. Um, so it's one of those things where words have slightly like taken on a different meaning over time. But a hundred years ago, every Christian knew the meaning of joy: it was happiness. But today we grope for words [00:02:00] and we try to figure out, well, how do we explain joy?

[00:02:02] We try to figure it out, but, and all we know to say is that, well, it's definitely not happys. . It's like, um,

[00:02:10] Don: happiness is groping joy is what I heard out all that

[00:02:18] Sarah: So, yeah. Um,

[00:02:20] Don: Sarah, I love that you're just like, and Yes. And move on.

[00:02:25] Sarah: Yeah. So it's, and more, it's, it's a more recent development, this idea that joy is something different than happiness. Which is, and part of like what one of the, it was one of the reasons that I wanted to talk about this on the podcast because I think it, it can be symptomatic of, or it can be, we can find, probably find other examples of this too, but where in Christian circles we take a word and attach super spiritual meaning to it and remove it from, its like relatability to the world around us.

[00:02:59] Um, So, yeah, so like, I think, is this what I said in the last podcast that I had that Facebook memory pop up that was, um, forget joy, give me or- Forget happiness. Give me joy. So like, obviously I was influenced by this thinking too, that like, "I'm gonna be a super Christian and I'm gonna have joy, happiness doesn't matter."

[00:03:20] But we also see it too that, um, when people say, " God doesn't want you to be happy, God wants you to be holy," or, We think of blessed as um, being different than happy, but these words are much more connected when you actually trace it into scripture than we're taught.

[00:03:43] Tana: Hmm. Yeah. It does feel, it's interesting cuz when you said originally you said something about joy versus happiness, and I thought, "oh, are those two different things?" Like I, at first, that was my reaction of like, aren't those the same thing? But then when I started thinking about it more, I [00:04:00] was like, you know, I feel like the word joy feels more christiany, but I don't know why.

[00:04:06] Sarah: Yeah. That's that groping for explanation that we somehow feel like in our current, like, in, we've just been influenced. I think that joy is more holy.

[00:04:15] Don: Because we attach like really christiany words to it. Like deep abiding joy.

[00:04:20] Tana: Oh yeah.

[00:04:21] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:04:22] Don: Right? Well, but I'd never heard anyone say "deep abiding happiness," right? We think a happy meals at, uh, at McDonald's, but joy, when it, Joy to the World Christmas season.

[00:04:34] Tana: Oh. It's like happy is more shallow almost.

[00:04:37] Sarah: Yeah,

[00:04:37] Don: Absolutely. I would say that that is how it has evolved, at least in the minds of a lot of Christendom, is that happiness is a very surfacey, um, shallow emotion that might even be very, uh, to use some of the terms that I've grown up with in the church. Very secular.

[00:04:57] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:04:58] Don: Um, and that we're not looking for that in our faith. We're looking for joy, right?

[00:05:06] Sarah: Yeah. And I think, um, this just popped in my head when you said that, that it's like, if we super spiritualize this idea of joy and joy is different from happiness. I think what people are trying to say is like, um, that I can feel joy when things are not going well.

[00:05:24] Um, I feel like in that case we're running the risk of not allowing people to feel what they're actually feeling in a situation, you know? Um, because they might be feeling what have been, um, we've decided are the more difficult or unpleasant emotions like fear, sadness, or anger or disappointment, and it's uncom-

[00:05:48] it can be uncomfortable to be around people or feeling that. Um, but if people who are feeling those difficult emotions think that, "well, I still have my joy" as if that like, then it's just [00:06:00] like putting a bandaid on it or, um, yeah, it's, or. They might feel shame that they're feeling these other emotions because they're supposed to be feeling this joy, which is like maybe this perpetual happiness in spite of anything.

[00:06:17] I don't know what it is we're trying to say with the word joy that it wasn't really ever meant to say .

[00:06:21] Tana: That's really interesting. The word perpetual really got me because it does almost feel like no matter what is going on in your life, you should have this like perpetual undercurrent of joy.

[00:06:36] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I was thinking like an undercurrent...

[00:06:38] Tana: I'm just a child of God!

[00:06:39] Don: Well, let me, let me read to you why.

[00:06:41] Tana: Okay, here we go.

[00:06:42] Don: James one verse two. "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Let Endurance have its perfect results that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." So that verse, I think is is The Verse

[00:07:09] Sarah: Yeah

[00:07:09] Don: that has shaped this idea of count it all joy. Um, That. But, but let me, let me say, I don't think that's a proper application at first. Yeah. Because I, I believe it can be also said the same thing. Count, count it all happiness.

[00:07:27] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:07:28] Don: Right. That what I endured is not useless.

[00:07:32] Sarah: Yep.

[00:07:32] Don: What I endured, what I went through, what I suffered is not for nothing.

[00:07:37] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:07:38] Don: But I. Um, that something good is going to come out- it's- happiness still works.

[00:07:45] Sarah: Yep.

[00:07:45] Don: But I would, I would say that's not typically how we use the word happy, though. We would recognize it used that way. And since we don't typically use it that way, we feel like we're it by saying, no, this is something different.

[00:07:59] This is [00:08:00] joy.

[00:08:00] Sarah: Yeah. And I don't really hear that as saying, you're gonna feel joy or happy at every moment of this trial.

[00:08:07] Don: No.

[00:08:08] In fact, it almost seems reflective.

[00:08:10] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Or, and this I feel is like, feels a big problem with emotions in the Bible. It's taking verses like that and reading them as if they're commands.

[00:08:20] Don: Right,

[00:08:21] Sarah: like consider joy. Like you, you better be feeling joy or do not fear

[00:08:27] Don: it does just say consider.

[00:08:28] Sarah: Yeah, , just, just think about it. Just ponder the possibility. Yeah. But do not fear. Do not worry. And then these are taken out as like commands and like, oh, I'm feeling worry. So, um, something's wrong with me.

[00:08:40] I'm feeling fear, or that's like sin. Something's wrong with me spiritually. When I see those things in the Bible, I see it as, a pep talk or like encouragement.

[00:08:51] Don: Well, it's descriptive. It's for that moment, for that individual, for those people listening. You know, it's important to think about like the, the letters, the epistles particularly is we're reading other people's mail.

[00:09:03] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Don: Right? So like, like we don't understand everything that's going on.

[00:09:08] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:08] Don: And so when you read these things like, do not fear whatever, we need to take a break, take a step back and go, is this a command of God, therefore prescriptive to all people for all times in all ways? Or is this descriptive to this particular moment in time?

[00:09:21] And so you're a hundred percent correct.

[00:09:23] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:23] Yeah. So I saw this meme the other day. Um, it said, "do what makes you happy," but then they crossed off, makes you happy, oh, and added "glorifies God" so that it says, "do what glorifies God." And then the, um, comment underneath it was, "Our feelings are fickle, fleeting, changing. Our emotions can't be trusted. Our hearts can lead us astray. Our desires often aren't in our best interest." And this is my [00:10:00] favorite, not favorite part. "Pick up your cross sis and go."

[00:10:05] Don: Oh boy.

[00:10:06] Tana: Wow.

[00:10:08] Sarah: I think I texted you about it cuz I got really riled up about it. I was texting Don cause I'm like,

[00:10:13] Don: when I get three texts in a row from Sarah, I'm like, I'm like, okay.

[00:10:18] Tana: Oh, she's riled up.

[00:10:19] Sarah: And it was during one of your livestreams and I felt bad. I'm like, oh. But it was like the only time I had to be preparing, but I was like, oh, I'm interrupting in in the middle of the livestream.

[00:10:27] Don: I was very unhappy, but I was glorifying God. So it's okay.

[00:10:32] Sarah: I just think that image, there's so much here.

[00:10:34] Let's. That last line because I want you to talk into, speak into that as well. But if we start with the first part, "do what makes you happy," but crossing that, "do what glorifies God. Our feelings are fickle, fleeting, changing. Our emotions can't be trusted. Our hearts can lead us astray, our desires often in our best interests."

[00:10:55] So any thoughts about that first part?

[00:10:57] Don: Well, the very first thing that that comes through to me,

[00:11:04] Is deep abiding sadness.

[00:11:07] Tana: Mm. Yeah.

[00:11:07] Don: Um, like almost, I, I mean, it's, it's creating some emotion in me because someone just hyper spiritualized this thing that makes it feel almost impossible to argue against it. In, in a setting such as online, like on Facebook, and to argue against, it would be like, "oh, you just don't love God," or you don't understand, and it'll be, it'll be thrown back at you in some way that you just aren't a good Christian or, or whatever.

[00:11:42] Right? You'll be dismissed. But these are, these are handcuffs, like these are, this is, this is a torture device. That meme is not innocent.

[00:11:55] Sarah: Uh-uh..

[00:11:56] Don: Um, whoever post reposted it might have [00:12:00] reposted it innocently, but these are, these are invisible handcuffs to people to keep them in a place that then is filled with guilt and shame about wanting to be happy.

[00:12:19] Sarah: Yeah. Unless we, unless you're doing what we tell you is glorifying to god.

[00:12:23] Don: Yep. And if I remember correctly, the meme abuse, you shared a picture of it with me. It's very pretty.

[00:12:29] Sarah: Oh yeah. So it's like, it's coral and blue and

[00:12:32] Don: they're fuzzy handcuffs and not for the fun part.

[00:12:35] Yeah, right. Like it's, it's really dangerous and harmful.

[00:12:41] Sarah: Cuz I think glorifying God is such, um, a complicated thing to, um, specify, so like to put it against each other. It just sounds like, it sounds like you just have to like, just agree with it. Yeah. And then like the control comes in, like when people come in and say, well, this is glorifying to God and this is not.

[00:13:04] Don: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:05] Sarah: You stay home with the kids. That's glorifying God. You going to the workplace is. As an example.

[00:13:15] Don: And I would say that meme, visually definitely was aimed towards women.

[00:13:19] Sarah: Oh yeah.

[00:13:21] Tana: Yes. And I'm feeling all of that for women too. But what I'm really, I'm getting a little emotional right now. Um,

[00:13:31] so good- on brand for the podcast

[00:13:34] Sarah: The happiness podcast!

[00:13:34] Don: Welcome. Welcome to the Happiness episode.

[00:13:38] No, because I feel like this is also weaponized against clergy and their family, um, because it's a calling, right? And so, you know, Don has had this calling for 20 years to be a [00:14:00] pastor and it's almost like the, the verse with like the consider it joy and then things like this, um, you know, "do what glorifies God."

[00:14:11] Crossing out the happiness part. It that, that feels like a message that we've received for the past 20 years, which is like "your individual happiness doesn't matter." Like your happiness as a family and your individual happiness is secondary to the call on your life. And if the call means that you struggle financially or that you don't have the kind of support you need or that you have to, um, constantly put aside your own needs in favor of someone else, then that's okay.

[00:14:52] Consider it all joy and glorifying God.

[00:14:53] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:55] Tana: I struggle. I struggle a lot with. . Yeah.

[00:15:01] Don: The, the other big assumption there, Sarah, that I'm sure you're gonna kind of lead us into, at least at some level, is that those two are opposed to each other. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, it implies that if, if I, if I were to take stock right now and discover that I'm happy, then I start to question well then am I glorifying God?

[00:15:23] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:15:25] There's a quote, I think it was Irenaeus who, I have no idea who that is or why I remember that that's the person that said it. But the quote is, um, the glory of God is a human fully alive or vice versa. A human fully alive is the glory of God. And I remember when I read that quote, um, and in my workplace there was this woman and she just like always seemed so happy. And like to me, I saw the glory of God in her because she was just always happy. Happy. And like, I think society or my coworkers might [00:16:00] have, um, labeled her as a little bit like eccentric or like, um, Simple or goofy or like, you know, but like, she just carried this like, so much happiness around with her.

[00:16:13] And I happened to be reading the book that I, I, um, saw the quote in and I was like, she just exemplifies this to me that the glory of God is a person who is fully alive. And, um, yeah. So

[00:16:30] if there's no more thoughts on that section, the, the last sentence. "Pick up your cross, sis, and go," it's just so obscene to me. Like, what the heck? Like what? I mean, what do they mean by this? Pick up your cross sis and go? Like, where am I going carrying across naked? Where do you want me to go? , because you're talking like it's just.

[00:17:04] It's so obscene to me that last line, and I know that there's, is it in Matthew where Jesus says, deny yourself.

[00:17:15] Don: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:15] Sarah: and pick up your cross. So I think that's a difficult verse. I'd like to spend some time talking about that because that is another verse that gets, um, gets, gets taken out and applied in these situations.

[00:17:27] But I'm sorry, like, cleaning up Cheerios for the fourth time in one day is not picking up a cross. And the weird thing is, is that like I feel like this group of people who like cheer on these kind of memes are the same people who are like, who celebrate children and multiple children and big families and homemaking and they celebrate all that.

[00:17:52] Tana: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:52] Sarah: So like how are you in one breath celebrating this life, then calling it across. [00:18:00] In the other breath.

[00:18:02] Don: Yeah. Maybe they meant Pinterest. Pick up your Pinterest .

[00:18:08] Tana: I, I do, I have often wondered about that. I, I the, um, taking up across, um, the verse and I've just heard that a lot, like, "we all need to carry our own crosses" and "that's my cross to bear."

[00:18:25] And like I, I just, I, I don't, I don't feel, feel like I fully ever understood what people really mean by that because yeah. How many of us, like, is there some metaphor I'm missing? Because like, Jesus carried the thing that he was nailed to.

[00:18:48] Don: It. It's it, it is a misappropriation of that verse, which is often done and causes harm. Um, we could do an entire episode on that verse. Deny yourself and pick up, take up your cross and follow me. Right? Um, Sarah, is this the time you want me to kind of go into it? Uh, so I, I'll try and keep it brief and maybe this'll, maybe we'll decide to do a fuller discussion on this. But first of all, Jesus is talking to people getting ready to enter discipleship.

[00:19:26] One of the things the church has made a mistake on that I say often is saying that everyone is disciples. Everyone is open to becoming a disciple, but not everyone is a disciple. There are some people that believe in Jesus, who are not currently being discipled, are not, are not disciples of Jesus.

[00:19:47] They're part of the crowd. Like you think about when Jesus feeds the 5,000 or whatever he sees the. But he's not confused about who's his disciples and who's the crowd.

[00:19:57] Tana: Mm.

[00:19:57] Don: When the crowd is pushing in against [00:20:00] him at the at the sea, he turns and tells his disciples to go across the sea and he'll catch up later, uh, and then looks back at the crowd.

[00:20:07] Jesus never confuses the crowd with the disciples. Churches have failed to do discipleship, and because of that, they just say the whole crowd, everyone that shows up Sunday morning are discipl. That just fundamentally is inaccurate to the way Jesus thought. Okay, I get words changed, they develop whatever, but that's just not So when we take language, when Jesus is speaking specifically to disciples or calling people into discipleship and we apply it to everyone, it causes a lot of confusion.

[00:20:45] This is one of those instances Jesus is making very clear to people that were interested in becoming a disciple, moving out of the crowd and into discipleship. That in so doing, you are giving up a lot of the things that you have the freedom to do right now, and instead you are going to follow me to your death, most likely in this scenario where we're currently occupied by Rome.

[00:21:16] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:17] Don: and we can be put to death, think about Jesus when he is actually carrying his cross. Simon walking by Rome was able to pluck someone just wandering by and force them to carry Jesus' cross. This is not a free right society thing.

[00:21:31] Yeah. Like literally they grab someone that's just walking by and force them to carry the cross for. Yeah, so this is a very different scenario than I would say probably all of our listeners are, are in when they're thinking about this. Jesus is saying, what I'm going to call you to, the way I'm gonna call you to live the way I'm going to expect you to reshape your life is as a living sacrifice.

[00:21:59] And, [00:22:00] and in so doing, you're opposing empire. You're disrupting empire so much that you have to know where this path ends. And I'm just not sure that in the US any of us are picking up that kind of cross.

[00:22:17] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:22:18] Tana: Right.

[00:22:19] And, and so to use it here, especially after talking about happiness and discounting happiness, Jesus talks people all the time out of disciple.

[00:22:33] "You're not ready. No, don't follow me. Go back to the village and tell them what God has done. No. Go bury your father. No, go do this." Right? Jesus is - there's no place that the Messiah even has to lie their, lay their head, go back. Jesus is always talking people out of discipleship. Another example is saying discipleship means denying yourself and carrying your cross, carrying your own torture device from empire.

[00:23:02] So this is where I think it could get complicated with talking about happiness. I think some people are called uniquely to sacrifice more than others, to ensure a opportunity for others to experience happiness. I would say it's similar to, like, we often hear people speak about the military.

[00:23:28] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:29] Don: right? Uh, people that go and put their lives on the line so we can have our freedom, right?

[00:23:34] And we celebrate that as, as I think there's room to, I think there's room to critique militarism as well. But, um, but the individuals doing this is, is something that's unique and powerful and for most of us, we can't understand why someone would willingly sign up to go put their life on. The same thing is true in discipleship, and if you ever wanna see how neutered we've made [00:24:00] Jesus, how neutered we've made the gospel, how neutered we've made the Bible, just take a look at what we expect from people with discipleship, which is usually a commitment of three to six weeks on a Tuesday night for an hour and a half.

[00:24:14] Sarah: Mm-hmm

[00:24:16] Don: that's what we expect of you from discipleship. So, um, like I said, this could be an entire podcast, so I will stop there.

[00:24:23] Sarah: Yeah, that's so great though, because even just listening to you sharing that, it just makes me appreciate the disciples in the Bible so much more. And like for the first time, even though I've heard you talk about this before, it just really struck me this time of imagining them, hearing that deny yourself and pick up your cross.

[00:24:44] If they looked round around or walked far enough, they would see crosses. They would see crosses.

[00:24:51] Don: Yeah.

[00:24:51] Sarah: And those crosses were not empty. They were not. So the impact of that statement in that historical time period, it's just

[00:25:00] Don: yep.

[00:25:02] Sarah: It's very impactful.

[00:25:03] Don: Yeah. You'll be criminalized, your reputation will be shot.

[00:25:05] People will say that you are an enemy of the state. All of these things,

[00:25:09] right?

[00:25:09] Tana: Yeah. So it sounds like this is another instance of the prescriptive versus descriptive kind of.

[00:25:16] Don: Yeah, I think so because again, Jesus is talking about those that are interested in following him and that's not the same language as believe in him.

[00:25:26] Right. Um, and this, this is discipleship language.

[00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:36] So I think, um, another word that gets contrasted with happiness that we see all over scripture is blessed.

[00:25:46] Tana: Mm. Hashtag blessed.

[00:25:48] Sarah: Yes. . Um.

[00:25:54] And similar to joy at one time, blessed was synonymous with [00:26:00] happiness, but over time it's kind of been like one of those words whose meanings has just been, it's just like white noise. It's like one of those Christian words we just say sometimes and don't even like stop and think about what it means. So again, it just falls into this like super spiritualized, um, word.

[00:26:21] Uh, so this book, um, there's this book, Happiness by Randy Alcorn. Um, a lot of like, my thoughts on happiness and emotions were impacted by that book. And this book. I'm gonna grab it cuz I'm afraid the title, um,

[00:26:47] this is from Father Jim, father James Martin. He's a Jesuit priest. He's hilarious. Um, but he wrote this book Between Heaven and Mirth: Why Joy, Humor and Laughter Are At the Heart of the Spiritual Life.

[00:27:00] Tana: Did you say Heaven and Mirth? Mirth?

[00:27:01] Sarah: Yeah. Um, and he, he actually worked at the parish of the Catholic school I taught at in New York.

[00:27:07] So I knew him personally to some degree.

[00:27:09] Tana: Is this the guy that's in with Sojourners?

[00:27:13] Sarah: I don't know if it's the same.

[00:27:14] Tana: Okay.

[00:27:15] Sarah: Um, so I wanted to point out both the books. And, and have a brief caveat of saying that I strongly believe that reading widely, reading a wide variety of sources is important. Um, and we're gonna talk about many books that we've read over the years, um, on this podcast.

[00:27:38] And it's not necessarily that we're saying that every word in a book is something that we agree with or, um, um, that we

[00:27:47] Tana: Sure.

[00:27:48] Sarah: So just to say that because. I just think that's, it's an important note.

[00:27:53] Don: A perfect example of that is you quoted Irenaeus,

[00:27:56] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:27:56] Don: who is one of the most antisemitic, uh, [00:28:00] people

[00:28:00] Sarah: Right.

[00:28:00] Don: Uh, early on,

[00:28:01] Sarah: which is why I felt the need to say, I don't know anything about this person,

[00:28:04] Don: but- Right.

[00:28:05] But, but I'm just saying like, that doesn't mean that someone that has this other stuff that we don't agree with, or maybe we even hate about them. Yeah. That there aren't some, some pieces that are, have value.

[00:28:20] Sarah: Yes.

[00:28:21] So in Randy Acorn, in his book, it's very thorough and he traces every, um, instance of happiness, joy, blessed, in scripture

[00:28:32] Tana: What was the name of Randy Acorn's book?

[00:28:34] Sarah: Happiness.

[00:28:35] Tana: Oh, it's just called Happiness. Okay.

[00:28:37] Sarah: I have it here too. But, um, so he traces it all back, um, to these Hebrew words of makarios and asher. And, um, markarios is the one that you most see in the New Testament, and asher you see more in the Old Testament, especially in- a lot, most of the usages are actually in the Psalms.

[00:28:58] So, um, like "how happy is the man who," um, but sometimes those are translated as "blessed." And there is actually another Hebrew word that more closely means what we take"blessed" as now, and that's barak. And an example of that would be like King Solomon shall be blessed. It more of like this divine favor

[00:29:20] Tana: Okay.

[00:29:20] Sarah: type of idea. But blessed has been put in like these words that also mean happiness have been translated as blessed and as a result, because we don't hear it in the same way, we're missing a piece of, I think we're just missing like a piece of what the, the text is saying to us. So even the beatitudes, um, that are always "blessed are blessed are" is the same word as happiness.

[00:29:53] So if you think of the be attitudes, "happy are the poor in spirit." It adds a totally different tone to it.

[00:29:59] Tana: [00:30:00] Yeah.

[00:30:00] Sarah: Um, and it's one of the reasons actually that I picked up a home and Christian standard Bible because they use the word happy more, um, for some of the translations, but they still, with the Sermon on the Mount, keep it as blessed.

[00:30:12] Don: Interesting.

[00:30:12] Sarah: And then Randy Alcorn, he says in his thing that he was talking to colleagues about, that he's writing a book about happiness and the happiness of God. And um, and somebody had said to him like, "well, you're not gonna call it happiness, are you?" Like, it's just how we've gotten to this point where it's not, um,

[00:30:32] Don: it's not spiritual enough.

[00:30:32] Sarah: Yeah. Happiness is not spiritual enough, but at a different time, joy and happiness and blessed, these were all like synonyms. So it can change how we read the text when we look. The root words that have been translated and open up their meaning.

[00:30:52] Don: Yeah. So it, you know, this whole, this whole changing of, of the perspective or the, the mindset around happiness reminds me, I, I hear people lament, and when I say people, I mean older, uh, lament about how these young people, uh, are more interested in taking pictures of their food and doing videos of themselves dancing in a public place than they are about reading a book and. There's a part of me that just finds that so

[00:31:27] Tana: interesting

[00:31:28] Don: so confounding.

[00:31:30] Tana: Yeah.

[00:31:31] Don: That clearly these young folks have found things to celebrate and be happy about and enjoy and want to share with others.

[00:31:39] That is fun. And there is a certain level of looking down your nose at that.

[00:31:47] Tana: Yeah. I wonder if any of this has to do with a like a, um, concern about like hedonism?

[00:31:59] Don: Hmm. You know, [00:32:00] hedonism was exactly what came to my mind a few minutes ago when Sarah was talking about the different usages of the word.

[00:32:06] What's fascinating about that is that John Piper, uh, wrote a book where he emphasized Christian hedonism and, uh, and I forget the name of the book. It's probably his most famous book. Um, but

[00:32:25] Tana: there's one called Desiring God, is that?

[00:32:27] Don: Its, yeah, I believe so. Um, now I do not share many beliefs with, uh, John Piper, but in the book, he does argue at some level for a Christian hedonism a, a, an excitement and stuff, but that's what I was saying is, that's kind of surprising to me, is that in a more conservative Christian circle, one of the preeminent voices for that, John Piper actually seems to support Christian hedonism.

[00:33:04] Sarah: Can you explain hedonism?

[00:33:06] Don: Hedonism is like the, the perspective of self-serving, fulfilling your desires.

[00:33:12] Sarah: Okay.

[00:33:12] Tana: Just seeking pleasure above all else.

[00:33:15] Sarah: Okay.

[00:33:15] Don: Which is why desiring God right, is about desire. And so I don't really remember the specifications of the book. It's been way long and ago that I read it, but, um, but I think there is something too. Man, it's gonna be hard to say because I, I wanna nuance it so bad, um, but there is something to the idea of us being hedonistic and that it is okay for us to seek out the things that we desire, that make us happy, that bring joy, not- or, or happiness, they're not different words, don- uh, that bring happiness to the people [00:34:00] around us, bring happiness to ourself, and that we don't need to feel guilty about that because I would argue God put these things

[00:34:10] Sarah: yes

[00:34:11] Don: in, in our midst for us to enjoy, not to tempt us away from glorifying God.

[00:34:18] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:34:19] Right. And just as you're sharing that, and because you're my friend and I care about you, but me just imagining like you being happy and doing things that make you happy, it makes me happy. You know, just like it would make me happy, like when my children are happy. Right. And, um, to celebrate that and like Yeah, that, yeah.

[00:34:43] Tana: I, I was just gonna say, I, I do, it's interesting. I didn't, I never realized that, um, Piper argued for like a Christian hedonism. I never realized that's what Desiring God was about. Um, it makes sense now with the title, but, even if people don't identify with it with the word hedonism, I do feel like there is this undercurrent of Christianity that has a suspicion of yes, that kind of like, like almost like pursuing happiness is inherently bad.

[00:35:18] Don: Or just less than.

[00:35:19] Tana: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's somehow moving away from God rather than toward God, you know? Or at the best it's neutral.

[00:35:29] Don: In the Venn diagram of godliness and happiness there's just a sliver,

[00:35:34] Tana: a sliver, just like a sliver. And, and I think, um, part of that might have to do, , um, the fact that like, think of all the things that a lot of more conservative Christians will critique and it's, um, things like, um, the LGBTQ community.

[00:35:55] Um, Any kind of like [00:36:00] sexual pleasure that is not in like a certain very distinct tiny category, right? Um, and, and, uh, even like tattoos or like, you know, like there's all gambling, there's all kinds of things, and these are all things that are like pleasurable for people like that make them happy either as a hobby or as a fulfillment of who they are or whatever.

[00:36:25] And, and a lot of, um, more conservative Christians will be like, those things are sinful,

[00:36:31] Don: but yet love sports.

[00:36:33] Tana: Right? Yeah. That's interesting. But, but it's, it is this, I think there's like this inherent suspicion of like, I don't know, like that pleasure, like you have to be suspicious of it right away.

[00:36:48] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:36:49] Tana: I don't know.

[00:36:51] Sarah: Yeah. And back to Father Jim's book, he says, . Um, I think this is a little bit tongue in cheek, but in history, the definition of puritanism, the haunting fear that someone somewhere might be happy.

[00:37:05] Don: That's definitely tongue in cheek, but that's hilarious.

[00:37:07] Tana: But yeah, puritanical, that's, that's one of the words I was looking for earlier.

[00:37:12] Sarah: And he says that "as Christians, we're more concerned with sin than with virtue. We point out the ways we fail, rather than suggest ways we might flourish. The thou shalt nots overshadow the thou shalts."

[00:37:24] Tana: Yeah.

[00:37:25] Don: Yeah. I definitely wanna make sure that as, as we, uh, Ancient Jesus Future Faith as, as well as a plethora of other organizations, church, church leaders are thinking about what, what is the, um, the current blossoming faith expression. Right? That debating whether it's post evangelic, whatever, I don't care about the name, but while we're wrestling with what is next, I think what has to be at its core is happiness. [00:38:00] I think what has to be at the core is this sense of being able to celebrate.

[00:38:07] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:38:08] Don: Right? Uh, that was a decision I made early on in our church plant was that I wanted to have at the beginning of every time when we sat down for people to share celebrations about their week.

[00:38:21] Um, I deliberately called it celebrations because I wanted it to be people sharing things that didn't necessarily have. Um, obviously attached,

[00:38:33] Tana: like I had an amazing pizza the other night!

[00:38:35] Don: but if you say praises yeah. People immediately are like, um, you know, God provided or this, and, and make it and, and eliminate.

[00:38:46] Some of the things that are just happy, like, I'm celebrating that I got a new high score in Tetris.

[00:38:53] Right?

[00:38:54] Tana: Right, that wouldn't be considered a praise, right, it's too shallow to be a praise.

[00:38:59] Don: But I would say for someone who, and I don't play Tetris, but um, but I showed my age by picking that video game. ,

[00:39:06] Tana: uh, Candy Crush!

[00:39:08] Don: But people dedicate a lot of time to playing those games and, and honing their skills in it. And someone might have for the first time in five years, um, exceeded their previous high score. Why should we not be happy for them? Yeah. Because for them it's something they do that's fun. It's something that they do that relaxes them.

[00:39:28] It's something that takes their mind off things and, yeah,

[00:39:32] Tana: well just think about the, the, the phrase guilty pleasure. But like that immediately

[00:39:38] Don: implies

[00:39:39] Tana: discounts so many things that people enjoy doing. Like some of those video games, I most often hear it with like TV shows, like certain TV shows are like, oh, the Bachelor is my guilty pleasure, or whatever.

[00:39:51] Um, but that's, that's, that's a very telling phrase. Yeah. It's like, oh, I can't enjoy this, this bit of happiness.

[00:39:58] Don: Right. And I know it sounds silly, but I [00:40:00] really wanted, uh, those celebration times to, to be almost silly.

[00:40:06] Tana: Yeah.

[00:40:07] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:40:07] Don: And that people would be like, they're celebrating that the, the next season of their favorite show just came out.

[00:40:12] Yeah. And that they're looking forward to that. And that's something that brings them happiness and, and I just think that's so significant. Yeah. Because I don't think we spend enough time asking, asking people what makes them.

[00:40:26] Tana: Yeah, I think that's really, really important. And um, I think we, it started off that way and it kind of got away from it and became more like, oh, what are your praises?

[00:40:36] And it was like, oh

[00:40:37] Don: yeah, I have a tendency to let the community shape where things go. Right, sure. And I think people kind of fell back into their, their more normalized. Uh, things, but you, we still get a smattering and usually kids start it.

[00:40:50] Tana: It's the kids. Yeah.

[00:40:51] Don: A kid will start and just be like, you know, give some absolutely random

[00:40:55] thing.

[00:40:56] Tana: Right? Like, I had animal crackers this morning, like, oh, yay.

[00:41:00] Sarah: But it's such a beautiful thing because when we hear what makes somebody happy, we're getting a little window into their, into them. Yeah.

[00:41:08] Don: And if someone ever does say a season of something, just. Everyone laughs. Yeah. And it's not laughing at the person.

[00:41:15] It's kind of like,

[00:41:16] Tana: it's relatable.

[00:41:17] Don: It's relatable. That's a great, great way to put it.

[00:41:19] Sarah: Yeah. And it can build connections like, oh, I like that show too. You know? There's so much relationship health that can happen there. And I also think that it's like moving away from um, compartmentalizing the secular and the sacred.

[00:41:33] Don: Yes.

[00:41:33] Sarah: And so that if our church doesn't feel like it's so separate from the rest of the world Yes. That this is just a place where we gather and we catch up with our friends and we share what we're excited about and we share what's hard and we, you know, that like bringing people into that space. It's not as much of like a culture shock or a separate thing to create like this kind of community that the [00:42:00] secular and the sacred worlds are just like combined because we can see God in the pleasure that these things bring these people that he created. Yeah.

[00:42:10] Rabbi Heschel -

[00:42:11] God created.

[00:42:11] Don: Rabbi Heschel says "the road to the sacred is always through the secular. "

[00:42:16] Tana: Yeah. Well, and I was thinking along the lines of what you were saying, Sarah, too when you were saying about the celebrations and like, oh, you kinda wanted to be silly, and, but it feels like it has to be like, so serious and like, and um, immediately the phrase that went through my mind is the, the whole like, oh, we're supposed to be in the world, but not of it. You know? And, and so it feels like, it does feel like, oh, well church is not the place for me to celebrate that I'm so excited that the new season of Mythic Quest came out, like, it just, you know, because I feel like, like that's in the world and that's like of the world and like

[00:42:53] Don: Yeah, yeah. Of the world is contributing to oppression. Of the world is, uh, overthrowing of justice. Of the world is, um, holding people back from fullness of life.

[00:43:06] Yeah. So in a setting where you have Rome holding people in occupation, and Jesus says, we are to be in the world, but not of the world. We are here, but our role is not like Romes. Our job is not that of Rome.

[00:43:22] Tana: That is very different, very important context for that verse. Yeah, I, and that hits so different because I've always heard it used as like a, you know, against any kind of, progression

[00:43:36] Don: because jesus was seriously worried in that moment about people, uh, binge watching Netflix.

[00:43:43] I mean, that's out of all the things that Jesus was concerned about.

[00:43:46] Tana: "And I say to you"

[00:43:47] Don: when Jesus is saying this, as there are bodies, as you mentioned earlier on, crosses around you, right? And Rome is just plucking people off the street to do their bidding. And Jesus is like, and [00:44:00] listen, at the end of the day, I do not want.

[00:44:02] Being happy about watching Netflix.

[00:44:06] Tana: Woe to you who have auto play on.

[00:44:09] Sarah: Full disclosure: I forgot that was a Bible verse. I thought it was one of the things that like, oh, people say, yeah, that like somebody said and everybody adopted, like the joy versus happiness.

[00:44:18] Tana: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:18] Sarah: Type of things. So I forgot that was even something that Jesus said.

[00:44:22] Tana: You know, gosh, first of all, Don, thank you so much for providing the context for that because I don't-

[00:44:30] if you have taught that before, I apologize cuz I forgot, but I, I don't think we ever really discussed that verse before and

[00:44:38] Don: No, I don't think, I don't think I've really taught that I, at least not in a very long time.

[00:44:42] Tana: Yeah. And, and so that really, um, like yeah, I don't wanna be of the world that's oppressing people and, and, and causing,

[00:44:50] Don: and I think when you first say that, people go, oh, okay, I get that.

[00:44:53] But when you actually put Jesus in his context and say, um, people Jesus was not worried that you shopped at The Gap. Yeah. Like, like do you think that that God Incarnate in that moment of just destitution of people Right. Was like, and listen, uh, you should buy your pants at Costco. . Yeah. Like, what?

[00:45:20] Tana: You know.

[00:45:21] Go ahead, Sarah.

[00:45:22] Sarah: I mean, this is the whole thing. Ancient Jesus, Future Faith like understanding. Ancient Jesus so we could move forward with our faith.

[00:45:30] Tana: 100%.

[00:45:30] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:45:31] Don: Like I actually imagine

[00:45:32] Tana: Way to bring the brand in.

[00:45:33] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:45:34] Don: But I actually imagine Jesus in, in, in a setting where this concept of in the world, uh, as opposed to of the world, right?

[00:45:45] I don't think Jesus would lament that there came a time in history where you and I existed in a space where we could enjoy things safely and without worry, [00:46:00] I don't think Jesus would be lamenting that interesting. I think Jesus would be like, the gospel might be spreading.

[00:46:07] Tana: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:08] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:46:09] Don: Salvation for all people might be happening.

[00:46:12] Safety, you can actually sit in your home safely and not worry that someone is going to burst through your door and arrest you and drag you out. I realize that there are still communities in this world that have that, that fear, and so it is not done that the kingdom is not done breaking force. So we, the, the one warning I would give us is that our own personal safety, we're not to be like, where we're only worried about our own safety from the flood.

[00:46:41] Tana: Yeah.

[00:46:42] Don: Our own safety from the dangers that exist in the world, but that we're also concerned about the safety of others as well.

[00:46:49] Tana: And that's, you just jumped right into what I was going to say, which is, you know, you said that I would love to see us moving forward, a part of our, our future of our faith is, celebrating happiness and, and, and being happy and, and pursuing happiness.

[00:47:06] And, um, and I immediately was thinking, yeah, but also in a communal way too. Like not just being like, like you said earlier, Sarah, like, oh, if you know something you did, Don made you happy. That makes me happy. And I think that's one part of it. I think that's an important part is, um, celebrating each other's happiness but also in addition to the ways in which we try to serve each other very physically and meet each other's needs, how amazing would it be if Christians were known for making other people happy? Not just like, I think there's a difference between, um, um, providing a meal to somebody and meeting that specific need, which may make them feel content or relieved, or, and it might make them happy, but then there's this whole other [00:48:00] level that we could ramp that up to that I, I sometimes feel like we stop at the needs, right?

[00:48:06] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:06] Tana: We're just like, oh, well, It and, and actually sometimes almost to a really detrimental point, right? Where, um, I've heard people be like, well those, why do those poor people have a satellite dish?

[00:48:17] Like they can't, you know, , it's like, it's like they, they, they're poor and you know, why should they have pleasurable things? It's like, your needs are met. That's it.

[00:48:28] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:29] Don: There's a reason that one of the major images for the Messianic era, which as a Christian, that means we believe we're. Is a Messianic era is a huge table that is a feast, right?

[00:48:43] Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, I have some family issues. Uh, and so holidays and feast aren't necessarily always delightful in my mind, but the idea of sitting around this huge table with an abundance of food and a feast

[00:48:58] Tana: pots of meat

[00:48:59] Don: IS about happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Like it is. That's the whole picture. That's the whole visual of the Messianic era sitting around this huge feast.

[00:49:10] The Feast of the Messiah. Like how awesome is that? And it's not like everyone got an appropriate portion.

[00:49:17] Tana: Right.

[00:49:18] Don: And um,

[00:49:18] Tana: it's not little plates with portions on them, right? It's a table of

[00:49:22] Don: Yeah, it's, I imagine it to be decadent. Not, uh, minimal.

[00:49:26] Tana: See, I'm half Italian, so I feel this. Cause it's like the meal is not just a perfunctory.

[00:49:34] Feed people thing. It is in fact, sometimes to our detriment a little bit. So much like stuff until you're way too full. Like we're just gonna keep feeding you. Yeah. But um, yeah.

[00:49:48] Sarah: Don, isn't there, um, when you and I were chatting about the "deny yourself, take up the cross." Wasn't there a communal aspect about that too, that you threw in there that I don't think you mentioned when you, we touched on it earlier, [00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Don: if you remember any element of it, I would be so grateful for you to hand that element of it to me.

[00:50:06] Sarah: I think it, I might be able to find it in our text, but um, I think it was something like that if we are thinking about carrying the cross, that Jesus wasn't just carrying for his own benefit.

[00:50:17] Don: Oh, yes, absolutely. So when Jesus takes up the cross, he's taking the pain, the suffering. Oh yeah. The oppression of the world upon him. Yeah. Yeah. And that when we take up our cross, we are also called that, that those of us who enter into that place, that relationship, that we need to recognize that the cross isn't just about us.

[00:50:40] If we believe that something mystical in the metaphysical in the world happened on that cross, and Jesus is inviting us to participate in it, then it's not just about us. We're we're carrying the sins. And I think we see that with martyrs all the time, right? Yeah. Um, MLK, uh, murdered, but part of that murder and that cross carrying that he did there led to many people, um, being freed in, in very unique and beautiful ways. And so MLK didn't imagine that his life was solely his and the sacrifice and the, the cross that he was carrying was only for him.

[00:51:24] Sarah: Yeah. I thought that was an important piece and it popped in my head that it hadn't come out earlier, so I wanted to circle back.

[00:51:30] Don: Yeah.

[00:51:31] Tana: Yeah. That's it. That's so, so kind of tying everything together, it's the taking up the, the cross thing, um, and the kind of adding in the, like, let's celebrate happiness. I'm trying to, there's, I'm making a connection in my mind, but I'm having hard time articulating it.

[00:51:53] Don: Well, it's, I think part of the reason you might have trouble articulating or making a full-fledged connection is [00:52:00] because we made those diametrically opposed.

[00:52:02] Tana: Yes.

[00:52:02] Don: And, or we made one to be godly and one to be. Right. And, and I, I'm gonna bring it back to what I hear people talk about with the military all the time. Like when, um, Kaepernick was taking the knee and a lot of, he actually sought out, um, of that input Yeah. Um, to find out what's the best way to do this.

[00:52:25] And one of the things that you hear from a lot of people in the military about that is, I fought so you would have the right to take that knee. I would argue Jesus took up the cross so we'd have the ability to be happy, that you and I in certain circumstances, when we're called to do something of significance, that's setting aside some of our wellbeing or some of our own freedoms, in order to increase the freedom of others, whatever it might be, that that sacrifice is only worth it if people that come along behind us have more freedom, can experience more happiness. Uh, that that's part of the goal. And so it's not, they're not diametrically opposed. One is saying, in certain circumstances this is necessary and it, boy, do we wish it wasn't, but it is. And since it is, there are some of us who are going to do that.

[00:53:29] But that again is descriptive, not prescriptive. Not all of us are called to, to be martyred. That isn't our goal. As a Christian, your goal should not be to be martyred. Like that's a strange goal. Yeah. Um, the goal should be to live a faithful life and bring joy and happiness and safety to all the people that you can.

[00:53:56] And some of us might die in the [00:54:00] midst of that.

[00:54:03] Uh, but that's, they're not, they're not opposed, they go hand in hand. One is necessary for the other.

[00:54:08] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:54:11] I was thinking too about, you know, imagining back to like when you were talking about the celebrations and being silly, like, and the church being a place where people are silly or, um, people are laughing, like laughter is physically healing.

[00:54:29] Don: Yeah,

[00:54:29] Sarah: it cleanses the body of stress hormones. I took notes, cortisol breaks, negative thought cycles, releases, feelings of anxiety, sadness, and fear. And if we want the church to be a place of healing, then laughter can be a part of that. Oh yeah. I actually read the Happiness book several years ago, but it was a, I read it with my younger sister together and we talked about it a lot, and when we realized that we're just like, We just decided in our lives that anytime, anytime we started laughing, that we would just purposely try to prolong it as much as possible to get the healing benefits.

[00:55:01] So we would just like, keep laughing and um, but yeah, so if we want the church to be a place of healing, then laughter can be a part of that.

[00:55:10] Tana: Probably should be.

[00:55:11] Sarah: Should be. Yeah.

[00:55:13] Don: And I think another dichotomy that I think exists in most people's mind that I don't think. is that being silly, laughing, means a lack of seriousness.

[00:55:27] Tana: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:28] Don: And, uh, I would say that some of the most serious people about studying scripture are some of the funniest people I've ever met.

[00:55:40] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:41] Tana: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:55:42] Don: And, um, are happy and I think we, we miss, we think that we have to take christianity or our faith just so- like why so serious, right? That we feel like that pressure and part of [00:56:00] taking it serious is to bring all of you to it.

[00:56:03] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:56:04] Don: And, and all of you includes happiness, laughter, humor, wit, sarcasm, right? Those things all belong in studying the text and living a faithful life.

[00:56:20] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And living a free life because like, humor can actually, I mean, one of the reasons that people in power don't wanna see humor is because humor can be used to, um, poke at and attack people in power.

[00:56:34] Don: Oh, comedians. Comedians are some of the most sub subversive, uh, individuals. Absolutely.

[00:56:41] Tana: Well, um, we're getting close to the end here, so any

[00:56:45] Don: Wait, that sounds daunting, ominous.

[00:56:49] Tana: You heard it here. Prophecy folks. , uh, the end of this particular podcast episode.

[00:56:56] Don: Thank God. I was worried.

[00:56:58] Tana: Yeah. Uh, so any final thoughts on on joy, happiness?

[00:57:06] Everything we talked about?

[00:57:06] Don: I think Ren and Stimpy said it best.

[00:57:08] Tana: Ren and Stimpy oh my God.

[00:57:11] Don: Happy. Happy joy. Joy.

[00:57:15] Oh honey, your pop culture references are always so old..

[00:57:20] I remember them when they were on MTV not even Nickelodeon.

[00:57:23] Tana: Oh my goodness. Uh, Sarah?

[00:57:28] Don: The adult in the room.

[00:57:29] Tana: Can you top Ren and Stimpy?

[00:57:32] Sarah: Well, um, at the risk of introducing a whole nother idea instead of summing up at the end, um, I just, um, wanted to add that God is happy and imagine God liking you.

[00:57:49] Tana: Man, I'll bet you a lot of people have a hard time with that.

[00:57:52] Don: I'm, I'm thinking you do Tana as I saw you. Take a deep breath and sit back.

[00:57:55] Tana: Yeah.

[00:57:56] Sarah: God likes you Tana. Hm. [00:58:00] I just felt like Fred Rogers there. Yeah.

[00:58:05] Don: All right. Quality Kid TV show recommendation.

[00:58:09] Tana: Yeah, he was a quality human. Thank you, Sarah.

[00:58:12] Sarah: I like you too.

[00:58:14] Tana: I like you too. I like you too, Don.

[00:58:17] Don: Feeling left out.

[00:58:20] Tana: Oh man, that got me emotional right at the end, Sarah. Okay. So, um, yeah. And any other, any other thoughts?

[00:58:30] Sarah: Nope.

[00:58:31] Don: Nope.

[00:58:31] Tana: Okay. So happy, happy, joy, joy and God is happy and God likes us. I think those are good places to end. Yeah. Uh, so thank you for joining us today. If you want to, uh, find out more about us or find links to any of our other things, including our YouTube channel, you can go to ajffpodcast.com. And if you wanna support the work we're doing, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/ajff and, uh, tip us or become a supporter there.

[00:58:59] And, Thank you. Glad you could join us today. Hope you can find some things to bring you happiness this week. Yes. Bye

[00:59:08] Sarah: bye

[00:59:09] Don: bye.